An Idiot in Action

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Ubiquitous Che 5.27.09 / 1am

Why should we listen to her?

Well… You’ve read her, linked her, and talked about her. The more interesting question is not should, but why.

Question 1: Regardless of whether or not you should listen to her, why are you doing so?

And to paraphrase her statement as a question:

Question 2: If moral actions can be ranked, which of the following options is morally superior to the other:
1. To do good for the sake of God, or;
2. To do good for the sake of doing good?

I’m not just yanking your chain – I’m curious to your answers on both questions.

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christianresponse 5.27.09 / 2am

Hello Ubiquitous! I thought I saw you the other day. Man, you’re all over the place.

To answer your first question, I saw her blog featured on the first page of wordpress and thought that the blogger might have something meaningful to say. I was disappointed and felt I had to respond.

And as for your second question, moral actions can be ranked: We both agree in the following rank: It’s better to do good than bad.

Choosing between the two choices you presented, however, will lead us into a dialogue that requires an agreement of worldviews. Unless we establish that then I don’t think anyone can respond. But let me ask you this: “Is morally superior to do good to your siblings for the sake of your parents or for the sake of doing good?

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Ubiquitous Che 5.27.09 / 4am

Actually, that begs an interesting question: Is it always good to do good to your siblings? Depending on the sibling, there may be exceptions to that assumption.

Misgivings aside:

If it is good to do good to your siblings, then doing that good for the sake of doing good is morally superior to doing that good for the sake of your parents.

IMHO, of course. ^_^

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christianresponse 5.27.09 / 5pm

Ubiquitous,

But isn’t doing good for the sake of doing good really another way of doing good for the sake of satisfying one’s own desire to be morally or to feel good about himself? If you agree, then you will also agree that doing good for the sake of doing good is self-serving. And if you agree to that then you need to ask the following: is it better to do good for the sake of others or for the sake of myself? Any action can be motivated by either. IMHO, it’s better to do good for the sake of others than for my own.

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Ubiquitous Che 5.27.09 / 9pm

But isn’t doing good for the sake of doing good really another way of doing good for the sake of satisfying one’s own desire to be morally or to feel good about himself? If you agree, then you will also agree that doing good for the sake of doing good is self-serving.

‘If’ indeed! But if I do not agree?

No – I think that when we use the term ‘good’, we are referring to the end of a means, not a means to an end.

And when we use the term ‘doing good’, we are referring to a means with ‘good’ as the end.

So that when we use the term ‘doing good for the sake of doing good’, we are referring to acting on the means of doing good as the final end of that means.

If in a given case, ‘satisfying one’s own desire to be morally or to feel good about himself’ itself is the good, then to do good for the sake of this end would be to do good for the sake of doing good.

But, if in a given case ‘satisfying one’s own desire to be morally or to feel good about himself’ is not the good, then to do good for the sake of this end – in these cases – would not be doing good for the sake of doing good.

So to your conclusion:

IMHO, it’s better to do good for the sake of others than for my own.

Perhaps you are correct – however, this is not the question asked, and you have not convinced me that doing good for its own sake is the same as doing good for our own sake.

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The de-Convert 5.27.09 / 8pm

BTW, the d-C blog is a collection of different authors. Neece didn’t write your quote above, I did 🙂

Not sure where you see arrogance. It’s actually quite a humble statement and is in response to the very idiotic pascal’s wager.

Tell me what you disagree with?

1. you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. (right in line with what most Christians claim are the teachings of Christ)

2. you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds (right in line with the book of James. You should read it).

Paul

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1. christianresponse 5.29.09 / 12am
  
  The arrogance is in this statement: “If there is a benevolent God reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds- when there is a significant lack of evidence on how to define God or if he/she even exists.”
  
  How do you know that a benevolent God will judge me on my actions and not on my belief in creeds? And how do you know his standards on how he will judge my actions? Please tell me by what authority you have to say such things?
  
  Reply
Ubiquitous Che 5.27.09 / 10pm

Ha! Silly me for confusing the writers. ^_^

As for what I disagree with – I’ll play along. That said, your question doesn’t exactly address my question. It’s a different discussion altogether.

1. Is a good generalization. I’m hesitant at declaring morality in such absolute terms – there may be situations in which love, kindness, compassion, mercy, and/or tolerance are inappropriate. But as they are generally desirable qualities, I’m generally in favor of them.

2. Is also a good general sentiment – however, I have a subtle problem. There is a suppressed assumption in the statement that suggests that what I will be judged on, or whether or not I will be judged, matters.

Since the context of the discussion I was trying to have centered around doing good for its own sake, this is not trivial.

If good is the end goal and the results of judgment is not, then there there is a significant difference between doing good for its own sake, and doing good because it will be judged favorably.

That is to say: If (hypothetically) I were to be damned to eternal… er… damnation for doing good and not doing evil, would doing good despite this imminent damnation be morally superior to doing evil to escape it?

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The de-Convert 5.28.09 / 8am

UC,

Personally, I no longer believe in the Christian heaven or hell. However let’s for a moment assume them to be true.

In your worldview, Ghandi is damn because he did not believe the man Jesus to be God and if the worse evil person in history could “believe and confess” on his deathbed and be saved. If that makes sense to you, more power to you. However, I tend to go along with the argument James was trying to make to rebuff the direction the early church was heading. Being the brother of Jesus, you would figure he’d know more of what Jesus intended than a pharisee who saw a “light” and was taught by “spirit Jesus” (how many of those have we had over the years).

Distill the gospels down to the authentic teachings of Christ (here’s a good list http://seekism.wordpress.com/archive/the-teachings-of-jesus/ ) and you’ll have a pure form of Christianity that lines up with my basic points above. Jesus broke down the false conceptions the Jews had of God. The writers of the N.T. rebuilt it. Bottom line is you’re brand of Christianity is no different that Judaism. You just don’t slaughter animals anymore.

Paul

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Ubiquitous Che 5.31.09 / 11pm

The de-Convert
Hang on… I just clicked on the link in your name, and I think we’ve got our wires crossed, somewhere. The conversation is getting really, really de-railed.

I reject the notion of a metaphysical soul. It follows that from this that I also reject the concept of an afterlife. Since ‘God’ as He has been explained to me by theists generally amounts to a bigger version of a human soul, it also follows that I am an atheist.

I just need to get that out of the way – I’m uninterested in my own opinions. I was just trying to get a straight answer out of ChristianResponse. I think I misread your earlier comment as being directed at me:

BTW, the d-C blog is a collection of different authors. Neece didn’t write your quote above, I did

Which seems silly now. I was in a hurry, so didn’t read as carefully as I should. In a nutshell, I stuffed up. ^_^

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An Idiot in Action

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